For now... suffice it to say I have a serious love/hate relationship with this episode.
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LadyKate63 |
Season 3 Episode 9: A Dangerous Deal |
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It will probably be at least tomorrow before I can post my thoughts on tonight's ep on BBCA, but I thought I'd start the thread, for those who'd
like to share their impressions.
For now... suffice it to say I have a serious love/hate relationship with this episode.
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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FairyCutie86 |
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Oh... I can't wait to see what your "love/hate relationship" is with this episode LadyKate.
Well, I LOVE the episode. One of the best of the season. Perhaps my 2nd or 3rd favorite episode. Meg should have been the Kate character throughout the season. Meg is far more tolerably and lovable and she certainly has more personality and character. Yet another episode where Guy basically has all the best moments and you kinda forget about the rest of the cast, which poses a problem when you love everyone else but the writers just seem to be forgetting that the show is called "Robin Hood." I think Much finally had some great stuff to do for the season but it all had to revolve around Kate! Kate Kate Kate! It really is just annoying. And may I completley erase the Kate/Robin kiss from my brain? That kiss should have been reserved for Allan or Much and not Robin. It's pretty much starting with this episode that I completely dislike Kate and wish she'd just go away. Well, trying to forget Kate and move on to the better aspects of the episode, I'll turn to Isabella. We certainly get to understand her hate and distrust of all men when Thornton comes into the picture. Thornton is cold and brutal and I think his presence is timed just right to really send Isabella further over the edge of insanity. A thing about Thornton: this man is pretty good looking in my opinion. Okay, a jerk and woman abuser, but a piece of eye-candy. In "Let the Games Commence" it came across that Thornton was an old man who married a young Isabella and abused her. Well, then he pops up and it's this younger guy---perhaps early 40s I'm guessing, maybe 5 years older than Guy. His appearance came as a shock to me, which might have been intentional---maybe to give him this specific look on the outside to suggest that Thornton's a charmer, but in the inside he's cold and evil. Poor Isabella! Another episode where you love her and then you hate her and then you love her but then hate her some more. I give her major sympathy concerning her troubles with Thornton, because I'm of the opinion he possibly raped her which is kinda implied around the end before she kills him. But then, I want to take my sympathy back after the way she treats Guy and Meg at the end. It's all so confusing but fun to watch Lara Pulver play. And then Robin: why is he such a fool? You would think he'd be a bit more cautious when it comes to Isabella after some of the things she's done. Guy and Meg: what's not to love? Their scenes are the highlight of the episode for me. Just so full of emotion and very well acted. Practically every scene I was teary eyed. Meg also serves as a great way for Guy to finally mourn the loss of Marian---interesting parallels between Meg and Marian. Meg's arrival into Guy's life is just so poignant in his character development. We've had brooding, depressed, evil Guy for far too long and it was nice to see the more emotional and caring side of Guy that Marian occasionally brought out of him. So 9.5 arrows for this episode from me. Very enjoyable episode and great character developement for Guy and Isabella. There's so much more I want to say but I think I'll wait to see other people's reviews of the episode and develop from there on more of my opinions. |
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LadyKate63 |
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Don't have time for a full review right now, but the "hate" part of my love/hate relationship with this episode starts with a K and, actually,
rhymes with "hate."
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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CasualFan |
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I can understand the mixed feelings about this ep -any Gisborne fan must love the redemption scenes in the prison. This could have easily been turned into
soppy mush, but the writers did a good job of restraining themselves, and Holly Grainger (Meg) and Richard Armitage hit all of the right notes. Ms Grainger
was obviously cast with an eye to her resemblance to Lucy Griffiths, which makes the final scenes all the more powerful as Guy finally weeps for her and for
what he mindlessly threw away - Marian's life, and his own.
Unfortunately, this story is juxaposed with a somewhat confusing one about Isabella, and a completely repulsive one concerning Kate. After seeing Isabella's dear husband Thornton in action, though I'd say that Isabella has pretty good cause for her misandric attitude - her brother is a white-slaving creep, and Hubby is a brutal, chauvinistic thug. Combine this with Robin's dismissal of her, and you've got the makings of a real vendetta. Isabella is clearly supposed to be the new villain of the series, but she's very different from Vaisey or Prince John - she doesn't seem particularly sadistic, nor does she crave ever-increasing power for its own sake. Rather, she's looking for complete control and power over her own life, and it appears to her that the best way to ensure that is to assume power over others, especially those whom she blames for her wretched adult life. Where she goes off the rails is her utter unwillingness to brook any challenge or threat to her new-found control, or any perceived betrayal by those to whom she extends some measure of trust. She's actually a more interesting character in this way than either Vaisey or John - she has emotional complexity, which always makes for compelling bad guys (just look at her brother!). The Kate storyline, OTOH isn't complex - it just sucks. Apparently the writers and producers decided that it was time to start the great Robin/Kate love affair, even though their characters had spent relatively limited time together and had demonstrated zero chemistry with each other. We thus get to spend an entire ep listening to Kate whingeing about and being jealous of Isabella, coupled with a truly offensive bit of emotional cruelty when Kate asks Much (who she must know has a huge crush on her) to talk to Robin to let him know that they're just buddies so Robin will feel free to make the moves on her. Meanwhile, we get to listen to people like Little John tell Robin what a "treasure" Kate is, even though she's demonstrated no real skills other than tavern wenching and being thrown into prison. At the end, when Robin goes all gooey talking about Kate's "compassion," I have to wonder - compassion for who? Certainly not Much, and she shows no real understanding of Isabella's situation either - Isabella may be dangerous, but does she really want to see Thornton as Sheriff? It certainly looked that way to me. A strange ep - excellent material for Guy, mixed but interesting development for Isabella, and a complete non-starter with Robin/Kate.
Creator - A comedian whose audience is afraid to laugh.. - H.L.Mencken
Last Edited By: CasualFan
11/09/09 9:55 PM.
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LadyKate63 |
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Argh! pushed the wrong button and lost my long review.
That'll teach me to compose them in Word, from now on.
I have to get back to work now so this will have to wait until tomorrow.
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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jagnikjen |
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I have no real in-depth analysis to offer, cause I generally enjoy all the eps. Overall, a good and
enjoyable ep, almost similar to series past. Loved Guy and Meg. I really had no use for Guy what-so-ever until this season, but am tremendously enjoying his
character arc this season. I think before, I wouldn't have minded his badness so much except that he had no backbone. I was near tears for Guy there at the
end. What a great performance.
Like FairyCutie, I was surprised by Thornton's youth. And I'm glad Isabella killed him and that there's no chance he'll be back to bother us. However, I'm not really pleased with or buying this huge about face of hers toward Robin. I totally get everyone's theories on why she did (fragile emotional state or whatever based on Thornton's abuse, Guy's treachery, etc...) but I just can't buy that after all she knows of Robin, the time they spent together (and I'm fairly convinced they were intimate at least once), that she would make such a 180...wasn't it just the previous ep that (I can't remember what exactly the situation was) but something happened and she said "Robin?" with this look of hope or pleased expectation or something like that (I've only watched it once so far, so I could be way off...) on her face. And I remember thinking she was still carrying a thing for him. So for her to just suddenly hate him and want him dead. I blame the writers, Lara Pulver is playing what she's given with aplomb. As for Kate...well, like everyone else, I don't like the R/K pairing. Aside from Kate's negative qualities, she's a VILLAGER, Robin's a NOBLE - not to say that I would be against Robin falling for a villager--if she were his equal in almost every other way, but Kate is nowhere near Robin's equal in any way. I was hoping his look of surprise and dismay was truly indicative of his feeling toward Kate and not due to his worries about Much feelings--and where did those suddenly come from? Little John's comment was totally out of character as well. |
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LadyKate63 |
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Hmm, I think that Isabella shares with Guy a really strong reaction to real or perceived betrayal (witness her treatment of poor Meg!), and she sees Robin as
having betrayed her. I think that in this episode she also sees him as just another male trying to dominate her and control her life and her choices. Btw,
Robin's accusation of "murder" when she so clearly killed Thornton in self-defense was rather mind-boggling. I can't believe that the
writers/producers expected us to sympathize with Robin in this instance -- otherwise they would have at least made Isabella's actions more ambiguous.
Guy/Meg: It's really amazing that this storyline works so well, because if you summarize it, it honestly sounds like a Mary Sue fic written by a teenage Guy of Gisborne fangirl: Guy gets locked up with a feisty teenage girl who manages to touch his heart, reconnect him to his inner nice guy (nice Guy? sorry...) and give him his first glimpse of redemption. And then saves his life and expires in his arms after a tender kiss. And yet somehow it does work;
I'm not sure if it's the writing that lifts it above cliché, or the performances. Holly Grainger definitely did a great job of conveying both Meg's
sometimes charming, sometimes annoying innocence, and Richard Armitage was just superb in those scenes.
I've previous mentioned a fanfic called There Is Too Much, a kind of ballad-style commentary on the episodes chapter-by-chapter, and the Dangerous Deal one (just posted yesterday) has some very interesting insights -- but there was one I loved in particular, that after so many years of believing that the only way to show his love for someone was to share his wealth and power with them, Guy finally starts on the road to redemption by sharing his last piece of moldy maggot-infested bread (ew) with a girl in a dungeon. It's also fitting that after Guy has spent years of building up defenses and rationalizations around his actions, the simple and almost childlike words of an innocent girl cut right through them (I think that when she says "It is your fault, all of it!" it applies, in his mind, to much more than Isabella's situation). Of course it's possible that by then he's prepared to hear those things, having truly hit rock bottom and being hours away from death. I love the moment when Meg frees Guy from the dungeon and he says, with a look of joy and disbelief in his face, "You'd do this for me" -- I think it's not so much gratitude for his rescue (I'm sure he probably knows he won't get very far) as gratitude and amazement that a good person can care about him. I agree that mourning Meg is Guy's chance to mourn Marian by proxy, so to speak (someone in a LiveJournal discussion, I think, has also made the interesting point that Guy gets to mourn his "Marian" in the traditional Robin Hood setting of Sherwood Forest, while Robin mourns and buries Marian in the Holy Land). Also, I wonder if her last words to him -- "I always quite liked you" -- are meant to counterbalance Marian's final words of rejection. (Interesting that even when Meg was berating Guy in the beginning, her "the man in black on his black horse" sounded rather dreamy ... sounds like she always had a bit of a crush on him.) Isabella ... hm, not sure I like where they're taking her here. I mean, I like the fact that she is at least partly a sympathetic villain, because while she's clearly "bad" and duplicitous one can also see what made her that way when we see what a sadistic, terrifying creep Thornton is. (Until this episode a lot of people thought that Isabella might be lying about how abusive her marriage was and that maybe she just ran away because her husband was a boring decrepit old man.) I don't like that they basically make her go off the deep end, toward the end of the episode. Ambiguous, opportunistic, practical, devious Isabella is far more interesting to me than crazy Isabella. I do find it interesting that while Meg gives Guy a push toward redemption, she gives Isabella a push toward damnation -- the sympathy Izzy gains as Thornton's victim is quickly squandered when she condemns Meg. I can see, though, how Meg's actions are a total betrayal in Isabella's eyes. Kate... geez, where to begin. I really had to roll my eyes when Robin tells her at the end that he has seen her as the woman she is -- "compassionate, brave, beautiful." (Heh -- I used to think this episode ended with Guy crying over Meg.) Compassionate? to whom? Isabella, whom she would have left to the tender mercies of her horrific husband? Much, whom she so charmingly asked to talk to Robin and give the green light for her romance with him? Can't recall her displaying too much bravery during this episode either, and I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder but she's no Marian or even Meg, that's for sure. The Kate I saw spent most of the episode being a sulky, whiny, annoying, self-centered rhymes-with-rich. I really, really do not see the point of the Robin/Kate "romance," and the fact that it's so heartbreaking to Much makes it worse than pointless. Finally we get some good Much material (I love that he gets to save the day!), but in the process his poor heart gets totally trampled on. As for Little John, I wonder if his attempts
to set up Robin and Kate were due simply to his dislike and mistrust of Isabella.
Nice to see a couple of cheeky moments from Allan, but I kind of cringed at his "Yeah, and they'll make a donkey an Archbishop" comment; since when is Allan such a sexist? Also, shouldn't there be a bit more reaction from him to the prospect of Guy's execution? Yeah, Guy tried to have Allan killed in 3x01 and all that, but still, they do have a pretty complicated history that included a real friendship. I'm sure he wouldn't show any regret in front of the gang, but it would have been nice to have at least a reaction shot. It was also a bit odd that Robin seemed so indifferent to Guy's impending demise. This is the man who arguably ruined his life but to whom he also has an undeniable connection, albeit one rooted in rivalry. You'd think that he would want to be there for the big moment, or maybe even try to get into the dungeon to confront Gisborne one final time about Marian's death. Actually, that might have been a better way to handle Guy's rescue -- if Guy asked Robin to get Meg out of the dungeon and Meg refused to leave without Guy. I guess one possible way to explain Robin's indifference is that maybe by this time he is no longer sure how he feels about Guy getting chopped up, so he can't exactly be gleeful about it but it's also not like he's going to mourn his death ... so he simply avoids dealing with it. Which sort of makes sense, but also feels like a bit of a rationalization for something that was basically an oversight from the writers, the director, and maybe even the actor. All in all, a mixed bag. 10 out of 10 arrows for Guy and Meg, 7 for Isabella, one for Robin/Kate ... eh, these calculations are getting complicated, but all in all I'll rate it an 8 out of 10 just because I love the Guy material so much and Isabella has some great moments (and while the Much material was heartbreaking, it was also well-acted).
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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Last Edited By: LadyKate63
11/09/09 9:44 PM.
Edited 4 times.
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FairyCutie86 |
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LadyKate63 wrote:I'm glad that you mentioned Allan here, LadyKate. I am a HUGE Guy/Allan fan (okay, I read too much slash fanfiction about these two) and I always really liked the odd relationship they had in S2. That's one of the major disappointments I have with S3 is the lack of Guy/Allan interaction after all of the wonderful stuff they had in S2. I too felt that Allan, and Robin even, should have had much bigger reactions to Guy's upcoming death. Robin, of course, as vengance for Marian's death and like you said to be there for the big moment that his archnemesis was going down. And for Allan, perhaps Allan should have done something silly and postponed or even saved Guy and then get yelled at by Robin and the gang later and ask about where his loyalties lie (and SPOILER SPOILER SPOILER---Allan's loyalties needed to be talked about again at some point before episode 12 which is just so sudden and out of nowhere. If talked about in this episode it could have been brought up for a reason and given Joe Armstrong more to work with than just being a background extra). |
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LadyKate63 |
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Well ... I can sort of see that Allan would not want to openly show any concern for or loyalty to Guy, since he obviously values the fact that the gang has
accepted him back and trusts him again.
I would have been happy with a single close-up shot of Allan looking troubled when he hears the news of Guy's upcoming execution.
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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Nittany Lioness 1 |
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I think it is too much to ask of the audience to believe that Isabella, after the dungeon-drowning fantasy and subsequent letdown of that former episode,
presumes Robin's heart is holding out for her.
I also found it hard to swallow that she so quickly turns to over-the-top cruelty over the perceived backstabbing from Meg and Robin by condemning Meg and
cutting the rope on Robin.
I genuinely did love her Jesus attitude toward Meg and understand her disappointment at Meg trying to save Guy, but there wasn't enough time devoted to
showing us Isabella really investing in mentorship and self-projection into Meg to buy Isabella's sense of burning betrayal.
Meg was a bright nugget that unfortunately will only be a flash in the pan. As I said, not only would it have been great fodder for exploring
Isabella's motivations and hopes, but it also was a performance that stood up alongside the awesome-sauce that is Guy's journey.
One quibble - her name: I know it should start with an M to cue Guy's subtextual conflating with Marion,
Oh - and the kiss was nicely handled - I was quite moved by how the actress softly pleaded for it in her dieing breaths - it was just as a plucky defiant
young virgin who knows she's not long for this world would insist she experience that.
By the way - do maggots thrive in bread? I thought fly eggs were only laid in meat and animal products ...
And I'm really fed up with having to ignore that the castle guards/sheriff's men are just standing around and go with the waffling of Isabella and
Thornton presuming the role of Sheriff every five seconds.
Kate's inexplicable swordsmanship and fighting skills in some of these action scenes is really, really irritating.
Last Edited By: Nittany Lioness 1
11/13/09 2:24 PM.
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LadyKate63 |
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Wow, NL -- you didn't find Thornton scary? I most certainly did -- more so than if he had openly slapped Isabella around or something. I got a very cold
sadistic vibe from him.
There is some basis, historically, for him taking over from his wife as the Sheriff. There were instances when a woman was the castellan (governor of a castle, basically) and after she married, her husband basically assumed the duties of that office. However, I also agree that Isabella was a little too easily intimidated by his threat to go to Prince John -- maybe we're supposed to think that she has been so terrorized by him she can't think straight in his presence? That was sort of the impression I got. But wait, if she can't order her guards to kill him because if he doesn't return to his men by a certain time they'll go to Prince John, then why is it okay for Robin Hood to either kill him or pack him off to a madhouse? That didn't make
sense. Neither did the whole bit with Meg knowing the location of a Viking burial with lots of gold ... really, does it make any sense that neither Vaisey nor
Gisborne would ever know about this place, and this teenage girl does? Ah well.
As for Meg ... hah, "Meg" actually makes me think of Meg from Xena, totally wrong associations for a plucky young virgin... or any kind of virgin really.
Oh - and the kiss was nicely handled - I was quite moved by how the actress softly pleaded for it in her dieing breaths - it was just as a plucky defiant young virgin who knows she's not long for this world would insist she experience that. I thought the kiss was just right. For Guy to lay a big passionate kiss on a girl half his age as she lies dying would have been a bit creepy, IMO. Or a lot creepy. You're quite right, too, about the "fraternal" vibe. I definitely don't think that they would have gotten together as a couple if
Meg had survived, though that's a fairly popular fanfiction scenario. I can see him being her protector and her friend ... maybe even making himself into
the protective older brother that he wasn't to Isabella. But not a boyfriend.
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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Nittany Lioness 1 |
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OH, I don't think that presenting Thornton as ambitiously showing up and trying to take over as Sheriff, based on precedent and male marital privilege, was
outlandish - that didn't strike me as odd.
Rather, I just thought with Isabella's unique nefarious deal with John ... his absurb appointment of her in the first place is based solely, seemed like, on his belief that she's now completely resigned to be loyal to him, that John wouldn't automatically stand for Thornton claiming the position. Does John even know him? Why should we assume that Thornton's men arriving at John's, complaining that the wifey-poo isn't relenting the title would for sure cause John to send in the troops and rip his loyal gal from the castle? Regarding Robin later sending Thornton away in a cart - I think by then Thornton had established with his men that since he was in fact Sheriff, that scenerio, running to complain, was called off. I guess.
Also, though, didn't his immediate men at least - abandon him in terror at the fake Norse spirit horseman damning them for disturbing the resting place? I think they all ran away - probably to the same place in the woods as Guy's lion-fleeing men.
And anyway - Robin and Kate (please!) did kill a bunch of them when they were surrounded. *cough* *ridiculous* *a-chew*.
Last Edited By: Nittany Lioness 1
11/14/09 8:06 AM.
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LadyKate63 |
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Just a quick comment -- if by "absurd" you mean the idea of a female Sheriff in the 12th Century, there actually was a female Sheriff (of
Lincolnshire) appointed by King John (i.e., the former Prince John
) in ... 1215, I think. So fairly close to the show's timeline. Her name was Nicola de
la Haye. Although, admittedly, her claims to the office were a bit more substantial than Isabella's, since she had actually led the defense of the Castle
at Lincoln against barons who had rebelled against King John, during a fairly long siege. (She was widowed at the time, which explains why she had the
authority -- though previously she had also been in charge of the castle when her husband was away at the Crusades.)
I do think that Isabella's appointment was based on loyalty; I wonder, though, if she had told Prince John she was a widow, or Thornton assumed that she had -- and maybe the idea was that if PJ learned that she had lied, he would abandon his support of her?
*Keeper of Xena and Ares' love and hate*
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